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Flaw in Apple Airport Drivers - no really
Posted by: maluc
Date: November 02, 2006 02:13AM

http://projects.info-pull.com/mokb/MOKB-01-11-2006.html So to all you apple fanboys, suck it. and leave those two poor guys alone, they weren't lieing after all.

-maluc

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Re: Flaw in Apple Airport Drivers - no really
Posted by: rsnake
Date: November 02, 2006 10:48AM

You know, I hate to say it, but what a waste of time. Not because it's not an impressive find - because it is. However, other than to prove that it is vulnerable, who runs Apple anyway? It's not used as a server environment anywhere that I'm aware of. It's not standard inside any company other than a few odd and end type shops and publishing/design companies. As a percentage it's so small it's barely worth talking about, and it runs basically FreeBSD anyway, so it's going to have very similar flaws.

I dunno... if I'm going to use a fully featured and supported GUI I think I'll stick to MS. If I want FreeBSD I'll just use FreeBSD. Flames welcome.

- RSnake
Gotta love it. http://ha.ckers.org

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Re: Flaw in Apple Airport Drivers - no really
Posted by: id
Date: November 02, 2006 11:25AM

I don't fully agree RSnake, I've seen quite a few big clients choose the xserver raids lately, and I'm pretty sure that is what Stanford is using now as their main storage solution. Almost all major studios use macs and there are a ton of designers that use them from architects to fashion.

but yeah, fuck the apple fanboys

-id

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Re: Flaw in Apple Airport Drivers - no really
Posted by: rsnake
Date: November 02, 2006 11:38AM

Interesting... I was really talking about desktops though, not storage. But even still, as a percentage of everything, they are still barely on the map.

- RSnake
Gotta love it. http://ha.ckers.org

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Re: Flaw in Apple Airport Drivers - no really
Posted by: jungsonn
Date: November 02, 2006 12:05PM

I'm still waiting for that someone to invent a kernel that can be booted from a prom, who knows in a few lightyears from now. Until then, we're stuck. in the mean time, keep on slackin'.

yeah, ok ontopic: i also know a few boys running a mac as server, pretty stable though.

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Re: Flaw in Apple Airport Drivers - no really
Posted by: id
Date: November 02, 2006 12:26PM

Most kernels are booted *from* a prom... oh you mean the kernel on the prom, quite a few do that as well! (see most embeded devices).

-id

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Re: Flaw in Apple Airport Drivers - no really
Posted by: jungsonn
Date: November 02, 2006 12:39PM

Yeah the latter i mean :o)
,yeah some do allready? cool! would be awesome to boot linux directly from a prom for instance, without any drives whatsoever.

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Re: Flaw in Apple Airport Drivers - no really
Posted by: rsnake
Date: November 02, 2006 12:50PM

Do you count flash drives as drives? They don't have moving parts for instance.

But yah, there are certainly devices that don't have movable drives out there (my Windows powered phone, for instance). It's way faster than my first PC!

- RSnake
Gotta love it. http://ha.ckers.org

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Re: Flaw in Apple Airport Drivers - no really
Posted by: jungsonn
Date: November 02, 2006 12:58PM

lol

i meant more like an EEPROM, but then the PROM just like a video game, where the game is fixed unto the chip, so u can't write to it only read it. So storage could be made on ram next to it without affecting the fixed OS, indeed a complete OS with no moving parts. Same could be done with a build in browser, where you can't alter anything.

but this sparkeled in my imagination, don't have much technical knowlegde to actualy build it, and if it even will function properly, i think this could be a very secure method because nothing can modify it, so any idea about it is welcome.

edit: yeah, that was one argument: it's fast, second i'm not sure: but i think it pretty secure also.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2006 01:00PM by jungsonn.

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Re: Flaw in Apple Airport Drivers - no really
Posted by: rsnake
Date: November 02, 2006 01:00PM

I think id was working on some of this stuff actually... had a prototype of a fanless driveless computer for firewall stuff (not super good for a webserver as you need to write logs, etc...)

- RSnake
Gotta love it. http://ha.ckers.org

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Re: Flaw in Apple Airport Drivers - no really
Posted by: id
Date: November 02, 2006 01:40PM

I am working on this



But I think I fried it...might actually have time this weekend to look at it inbetween setting up the IRC server, working and drinking.

-id

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Re: Flaw in Apple Airport Drivers - no really
Posted by: maluc
Date: November 02, 2006 04:36PM

it's possible to do with eeprom, but it'll need to be a very tiny kernel. it's hard to find eeproms bigger than 4mbit (256kbytes) which definitely doesn't leave you with much. although you can easily make an array of 8 of them.. still only giving you 4mbytes. Are you trying to get complete kernel protection/backup or lightning fast booting. That won't help boot times much unless you load the whole OS into eeproms (there are small enough OSes for embedded devices, but they aren't linux and the features are limited). The three practical choices for boottime are really:

1) use something like id has ..
2) use one or multiple FPGAs to load the kernel to RAM either from the FPGA's memory or from a Flash memory, then transfer over to the processor. Code those FPGAs in a C-like language, VHDL will kill you. You could also use PICs or AVRs instead of FPGAs, if you're gunna go the Flash route. They just don't have quite the size and power of FPGAs, but more than enough to keep up with a Flash chip. did i use enough acronyms for ya?
3) rewrite BIOS to load from an embedded or connected flash chip
4) just boot from an USB flash thumbdrive

i dunno how much faster 3 would be than 4 .. 2 is definitely the fastest option, if you use only FPGAs. I probably would only attempt it though as a commercial endeavor. That'll take a LOT of programming time.

-maluc

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Re: Flaw in Apple Airport Drivers - no really
Posted by: jungsonn
Date: November 02, 2006 05:01PM

@id

Cute little thing :)


@maluc,

Yes, nuff acronyms! have to learn some more about these issues i notice. But, eventually could it be possible that the complete OS would run on a PROm? gonna dive into the books this weekend BTW before i say something that's not right.

;)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2006 05:04PM by jungsonn.

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Re: Flaw in Apple Airport Drivers - no really
Posted by: maluc
Date: November 02, 2006 05:59PM

yes, it's possible.. and it's possible to special order eeproms big enough - but why bother. Honestly, eeproms are more cool to use, but their mostly good for small storage and they're slow. Flash is considerably cheaper (but hard to find under 8Mbits), equal or faster read speeds, and 50-100times faster write speeds.

EEPROMs only advantage over flash is that you can write one bit at a time if you so choose.. for flash, you write things a page at a time. So for most programming i do with PICs, i prefer normal EEPROM, my flash chips just gather dust. By the way, flash does come in chip form too, not just cards. But mostly just for smaller storage. Example:



so go with Flash instead. And it's a huge undertaking btw, i can't tell you how long it took me just to get an LED to blink with a PIC ^^. FPGAs are even tougher.

-maluc

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Re: Flaw in Apple Airport Drivers - no really
Posted by: jungsonn
Date: November 02, 2006 09:03PM

Indeed, i have a strong electronics background, i builded circuits since the age of 12, so it should still be in me but needs to be dusted off i think :) I checked on the FPGA's and i know them from sight, not by name. But i think it would be interesting to just dive into it and figure it all out.

I do remember that my first PC (Philips P2000) also ran on EEPROMS, though it only had these specs: 16kb ram, 2,5Mhz, Z80 CPU.

see -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philips_P2000

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Re: Flaw in Apple Airport Drivers - no really
Posted by: maluc
Date: November 02, 2006 09:22PM

Well if you just want to build an embedded 'computer' like the ones of old.. there are OS source codes for PICs that aren't too tough to find. Load it on a 40Mhz PIC and it'll pwn your old Z80 (40Mhz PIC actually only equals 10MIPS.. so 4times faster than a Z80)

but i'm not sure if any of those OSes have anything more than VGA support for the monitor. If you're looking to make an Instant-On feature for a modern CPU/RAM/Mobo that's not going to be easy. And if you keep a motherboard, you'll probably still need to rewrite it's BIOS - good luck with that.

-maluc

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Re: Flaw in Apple Airport Drivers - no really
Posted by: jungsonn
Date: November 02, 2006 09:27PM

Haha indeed!

Well, some time to spend someday.

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